Ep 11: Transcript
11. Thriving versus Surviving: Living with grief and PTSD With Megan Hillukka of Cultivated Family
Brooke James: Hi everyone. Thanks so much for tuning into The Grief Coach, my name is Brooke James. You can find us on social at @The_GriefCoach and shoot an email over to me at hello@thegriefcoach.co. Today, we have Megan Hillukka with us, and I'm going to have her introduce herself and talk about how we got connected.
Megan Hillukka: Hi, Brooke. Thanks for having me on. I'm super excited to chat and share about my grief journey and how I help grief, and hopefully will help your listeners to maybe understand grief a little bit more and to embrace it. Like have a little bit more grief rather than shoving it away. That's kind of what I talk about and what I do.
Brooke: Yeah, and that's so important and, I think, so hard. So I think it will be really great for you to talk about. And the reason that I wanted you to come on is like specific tactics almost, because it's so easy to just push away this thing that's so hard to deal with. So thank you for being here today.
Megan: Yeah, thank you.
Brooke: Alright. So, if you can talk about just however much detail you want to go into on your own experience, and how you got into grief coaching and all of that, please.
Megan: Yeah, I came into grief like three and a half years ago when my daughter Aria died. And obviously like anybody else, it's unwelcome, it's unexpected, it's shocking, and it kind of throws you in this whirlwind of like, “Am I going to survive this? Can I make it through this? How am I going to keep living?” Like all of those questions and thoughts and you know, I was 23 when she died and I was like, “Is this what my life is now? Do I have any hope in my life? How am I going to navigate this?” I didn't know like my future was going to be. And with grief, I also was diagnosed with PTSD as well, because I was the one that found her and the trauma from finding her in some ways, I've learned a lot about trauma, and grief and trauma can, if you have layers of trauma, it can kind of prevent you from allowing grief in because the trauma that I had was so, my body was so high in fight or flight, and so tense and stressed out that I wasn't able to relax into grief. It's really hard to explain.
Brooke: No, I remember. It's really like you're in so much anxiety and then, I mean for me, everyone's grief experiences are unique, but after he died, I felt like I got hit by a bus. And, like physically in pain and exhausted, while he was in hospice was just like high alert all the time. And I know, obviously super different experience in terms of our relationship to the deceased, to Aria and to my dad, but, still, the overlap of physical feelings is very common. Sorry to interrupt.
Megan: No, that's totally okay. And I think grief is very valid no matter what the loss is. Like, I think there's so much comparison with grief. And we can say they're different, but it doesn't mean that one loss is worse than the other in terms of, your experience is painful to you and my experience is painful to me, and that's all that it needs to be. We do not need to sit and, I feel like sometimes there's a battle of like “Oh, I have it worse than you. You have it...,” you know, it's like, no, you know what, or even the other way of like, “Well, I don't have it as bad as them, so I shouldn't be feeling this way.” Like, no, you know what, you have it as bad as it feels like it is for you, and it can be that bad. It is that bad. So just allow it in. You don't have to tell yourself “I should be different” or “I should be feeling a different way,” you know, all those things.
Brooke: Yeah. So, if you could talk about a little bit more of how the PTSD and the grief, your journey with that, and how that affected you initially to how you got to where you are now. And I know it's like a day by day, sometimes hour by hour, change.
Megan: Yep, yep. Yeah, the grief for sure, in the beginning days, when I say beginning days, I feel like some people think that's like, you know, six weeks or something, but it actually can be very long time into years. So, in the beginning days of my grief, it was definitely like minute to minute or moment to moment kind of thing. But, I went to therapy right away. I felt like I just knew for myself that there was no way I was going to make it through this without some sort of help from somebody else, and so I went to therapy and I didn't know I had PTSD until I was explaining to my therapist what was going on with me, and I thought I was crazy, I seriously thought I was going crazy. I stopped going to check on my kids because I was scared they had died. And there were so many things, that I was so scared that I didn't feel like I was being the mom that I should be, quote unquote. And then my therapist had mentioned that “Maybe you have PTSD. Do you think that this could be true for you?” And I looked up the symptoms, and a huge one is avoidance, and I was like, “Oh my goodness. I'm not just a bad mom. I'm not just a horrible person. This is something that's real, that a lot of people experience that has a name to it that I can say I'm not crazy, but I have experience to a trauma that can, like it has a name and I can work through it and I can heal it.” And so, I went and did EMDR.
Brooke: What does that stand for?
Megan: Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And I think my therapist, the more that I've learned about trauma and grief and even just emotions and healing trauma, I think my therapist was really gifted with trauma, and sensations in the body and paying attention to all of that. But I spent many, I always told people that right now my job is going to therapy, that's what I do. I tried to survive and take care of my kids as much as I can, but I went twice a week and it was a lot, it was exhausting. But it was the best thing I could've done for myself. I think grief can feel like, so many times we kind of think that, “Okay, well I should be better off now,” or “I should be in a different spot,” and we don't allow ourselves to take self care in our grief, because other people need us, other people need this from us, whatever. But I really think grief is a selfish time, it's a time where your cup is so beyond empty, your cup is so empty that you don't have any to give to other people. And we try to, but we don't, and so it's a time where you really need to take it for yourself. And I felt like that is what I did with therapy. I did not- I cut out everything- I did not help other people. I tend to be like a person who helps other people as much as I can, like I really want to. And it was hard, it was so hard. It was hard that I talked about in therapy with my therapist that, “I want to help all these people. I know all these people are in pain, or need help, or need support.” And I was so sad that I couldn't help them, and he had me imagine that all these people who I want to help, imagine that somebody else is helping them. Like in your head, have a vision of other people are taking care of them, and so you can let go of that because right now you really need to take care of yourself.
Brooke: Yeah, I had a similar experience with my therapist and when we were talking just about some of the logistics and everything afterwards, and she was like, “Why do you feel like you need to do this?” And she's like, “Do you ask for help?” And I was like, “Sometimes.” And I think so much of people's reaction to grief, I had this thought just when you were speaking, is wrapped up in what your identity is, and especially, I can't- I don't have kids- I can't even imagine how complicated, and you read about it, someone's identity as a mom, and like what you should be, and what does that look like? And so that coupled with, you look at yourself as someone who is a helper, and so all of this kind of goes out the window when you're dealing with something so traumatic. And I love what you said about that it’s self-care, and that you went to somewhere right after that in the conversation about the amount of work it was, because I think when people think of self-care, they think of like massages, and like meditating, which, great, so important, but self-care of your soul is work, and it's setting boundaries, and it's like acknowledging emotions that are hard and, it's so hard to do that. And so I'm really thankful that you said that, so people can be reminded of that.
Megan: Yeah, totally, because it is an easy way to go to like, “Well, I'm going to take care of myself by eating ice cream.” You know, that way too. Or, “I'm just gonna lay on the couch,” which can be forms of self-care when you need it. Like being able to just allow yourself to rest. But, self-care is work, I agree. Like it's really, we, if we want to find healing, or if we want to learn how to carry our grief, there's just no way around it. There's no way around doing the work.
Brooke: I totally agree. And yeah, it's work, it's not easy, but you have to, and you have found a therapist, I've found a therapist, that's really helpful for some people. Some people, journaling, whatever it is that allows you to get to the below-the-surface-level feelings, I would encourage anyone going through grief who's listening to be trying to figure out ways to do that, and it's really hard. It's definitely not easy, but the feeling of weight off your shoulders after the fact is, for me, worth it, and it sounds like, for you, worth it.
Megan: Yeah, yeah.
Brooke: Okay, so one concept that we had spoken about that I loved, during our initial conversation, is how you can, like the concept of surviving versus thriving. And so, I'd love if you could go into a bit more detail on that.
Megan: Yeah, I think after when grief comes into your life, when you have a great loss, it really is surviving right away. Like you are just trying to get through the minutes, trying to get through those moments. But this surviving mentality is so prevalent and so many people when they say that, like when people ask like, “How do I, how am I going to do this? How do I get through this? How do I, how am I going to survive this?” And people say, “Oh, it never goes away. It doesn't change. You just have to learn how to live with it.” Or, “You just have to learn how to survive. It's horrible. It's awful.” And I feel like those comments are not super hopeful or helpful to people who are newly grieving. I think that we can learn how to survive or to thrive, and that's a choice that each of us gets to make. So, when you are in survival mode, I know it doesn't necessarily feel like a choice. It doesn't feel like, I know you didn't choose this, I know you didn't want this to happen to you, but you are choosing to stay there in survival mode. And I truly believe that the only way we can get to thriving is fully acknowledging and allowing grief into our lives. When we start thriving, it's not because grief has gone. It's not because we have fought grief off, or because we have gotten rid of it. It's because we have allowed grief in, and it has become a part of who you are. So grief is a part of me now, like I walk with grief every day, but the overall arching feeling of my life is thriving. I feel like I have hope. I have excitement for the future. I have joy. I have so much to look forward to, but I also still grieve my daughter. I also still get sad, and when I get sad, I don't fight it. I let it come in, and I think that's one of the biggest things for being able to thrive is acknowledging our emotions, allowing the emotions to be in, recognizing the thoughts behind those emotions, and then processing the sensations and the feelings in our body so that they can flow through our bodies rather than getting stuck within our bodies. So, it's just a whole process of allowing emotion in, allowing sensation in to flow through. Because the more, if you imagine like a big huge beach ball, and you're trying to hold that under the water, that's like holding emotions like anger, grief, sadness, depression, any of those. You're trying to shove it under the water and it takes so much work and energy, and you're holding it there and holding it there, and then, eventually, it will come out, it will explode in some way that you don't want it to. And the quicker, or the way, it doesn't have to be fast, but the sooner you begin to deal with that, the sooner you're not holding that beach ball under the water for the rest of your life.
Brooke: Yeah. And I'm wondering if you can talk about, because I know for me, I was very open when people would be like, “How are you?” And I'd be like, “Shitty.” Like, “I'm really sad.” Like, “I miss my dad,” or like my PC nice answer. Because people want you to say like, “Fine, good.” It is like one day at a time. And they would be like, “Oh, oh.” And so, if you could talk about any of your experiences around, what did you do? Because I don't know if people were expecting you to be fine, or whatever, but like how you acknowledge your grief to other people, because I think that that's something that a lot of people have a hard time with, because sometimes it's hard to not be fine, and so if you could speak to that at all.
Megan: Yeah. I've actually been very, very lucky and blessed with the people who are surrounding me. I would say that relationships have changed for me as well, but the core people that I'm surrounded with have been super encouraging and very- maybe it's just my personality where I talk freely and, I would just call them and say, “Hey, this is what I'm feeling, blah, blah, blah, blah.” I feel like I kind of dumped my emotions on a lot of people, but I tried not to dump it on the same person all the time. I knew I tried to spread it out so that one person wasn't dealing with my stuff all the time. But I do, I think, the question “How are you?” is a difficult question to answer, because it changes moment to moment. One moment you're like, “Well, what? What does ‘fine’ mean?” Like I was just sad a minute ago, and now I'm okay. But if I say “Okay,” does that mean I'm not grieving anymore? And if I say I am happy, does that mean I'm not sad? And if I say, you know, it's such a roller coaster and mix of emotions, but I think with my personality and my, I've always been a super open person, so I have not had such a problem with that. I just told people like, they'd ask, “How are you?” I'd be like, “Well, how am I supposed to be?” Or like, “What do you think?” Or, you know, I understand that people are asking that, a lot of times they don't understand what the depth of that question means to somebody who is grieving. And sometimes they might not be waiting for, you know, the real answer. And sometimes they actually are wanting to know how you are. And, for me, I decided that was up to me to decide if I wanted to open up to them or not, or just, whatever, you know, kind of brush it off or talk to them. So, yeah, it's a difficult question for a lot of grieving people for sure.
Brooke: And I feel like it's a really common question for people to be like, “How are you?”
Megan: Yeah.
Brooke: To your point of like, “Well, how do you expect me to be like?”
Megan: Yeah, and I think there is where people do want, they want to hear from you that you're doing good. Like there is that pressure of, they don't like to see you in pain, and they don't like to see you suffering or grieving, and so they really want you to say, “Oh, I'm doing fine, I'm doing great.” And some people can't handle if you tell them the truth, like they don't know how to respond well, I guess is what I should say.
Brooke: Well, because that's something that a lot of people don't learn how to do. And I think part of- and I don't know why I have decided that this is something that I should be doing- but it's part of the reason I started the podcast was like, how do you better equip people to have conversations like this? And, for maybe people who haven't dealt with something, to grief to whatever extent, to be hearing about other people's experiences so they can be more empathetic and ask better questions. And just know how complex it is, because grief is really complicated. I think a lot of people feel really isolated in their grief, and I think a part of that is because other people don't know how to talk to them, and I think each grief experience, I always say, is very unique, but there's common threads that go through all grief, or most grief. And so how you talk to people who are grieving, I think, makes a big difference. And I think you're similar that you also want to show a real picture of what's happening, so people understand, because it's like you don't understand until it happens to you.
Megan: Yeah, and I think there's two layers to that, I feel like. I feel like there's a layer of like we can always work at having more compassion, we can always work at trying to be better people, trying to be more loving and compassionate to those people around us who are going through difficult times. And then there's the other layer, which I've been talking about recently, is like we cannot control what other people say or do. And when we put our emotional health and our emotional wellbeing on what other people do, we're giving a lot of our power away to other people. And when we can decide, like if somebody asks, “How are you doing?” You could decide that, you could decide whatever you wanted about that question. Whatever makes you- cause you could think that, “Well, how do you think I'm doing? And how does that make you feel?” Or you could think, Oh, they're just asking that, and I can give them a, “Fine,” and that's my answer and we can move on, and then your emotions come from that. So if you say, “Let me try to explain this and that,” if you give your power away to people in that way where they have control over your emotions by what they say, your emotional health is based on what other people say to you, rather than taking control of what you- it gives you so much more freedom in your own life when you can be in control of your own emotions. Though, I say that with- grief is so difficult and it's a fragile time of life, so I know that's hard, but I think it's something that has changed my grief journey in my life in so many ways, is understanding that I have a lot more control over my emotions than other people do.
Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. I'm hoping that I'm gonna shift gears a little bit, that we could talk a little bit about now you're in this industry, and how did you decide to, what made you decide to want to get into that, and what you do with your clients? I’d just love to hear more about that.
Megan: Yeah. I actually, I remember a certain moment in therapy that I was thinking like, “I want to help people with this someday. I don't know how I'm going to help people. I don't know how it's going to show up, or how it's going to come out,” but I remember just feeling so grateful that I had this opportunity to go there, and get help, and do this work, and do the healing work, I guess, with grief. And so I felt really grateful in that moment, but I also didn't know if I had it within me to do it. I was like, how in the world could I sit with people and listen to their hardships and their pain all day long, or how could I- I don't know, It seemed really daunting. And as I've learned more and as I've understood more about healing and grief and emotions, the more, to me, that I sit with people, the more beautiful it is to me when somebody starts working through their grief. Obviously, I don't want anybody- like I would wish that nobody would feel sad or pain- but I think the feeling of the pain is the healing work, so I think it's beautiful. Like I, I seriously keep telling this about my husband, that every time he cries or gets sad, I get excited for him. I tell him- I'm a weird wife, I'm sorry- but I'm so happy that he's expressing emotions, and I think when I understand that the pain and the heaviness is important to work through, it's easier for me to sit with somebody in it. It's not so heavy for me because I think it's important to be there. And so, yeah, then I, I don't exactly know how I got here, I just started. I didn't know where I was going a year ago, and I just started, and it's just evolved a little bit more and more over the year as I started sharing and learning more about what people need and what people want and what I can help people with. And so, yeah, I started grief coaching, I've done a few different online courses and workshops of ways of like helping people understand what grief is and acknowledging it in, like I said earlier, in our bodies with emotions, and with our thoughts and minds and really just, I almost view it as like embracing grief, relaxing into grief instead of fighting it because we want to fight it so bad. We don't want it to be a part of us or a part of our life. And the more relaxed into it, the lighter it gets. So that's kind of the work that I do with my coaching clients, is that learning how to feel emotions, because a lot of people have a hard time naming and feeling emotions, so kind of working with that and noticing emotions, naming them, and trying to describe them and feel them in your body. And then I think a huge part of many things is like self-love, caring for yourself, and taking care of yourself in your grief and understanding all the expectations that you're putting on yourself in your grief, and just really becoming aware of everything in your life that you are beating yourself up with, or getting angry at yourself for, and just really coming from a place of love for yourself and others. And yeah, I think it's one of the bravest things for somebody to begin to do the grief work, I think it is so brave and courageous of them.
Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of the reason it's so hard for people to relax into it, to your point, is because then it's like, oh, this really happened. And I think that's why so many people have such a hard time acknowledging it, is like, oh, this is real, this isn't a nightmare. I mean, I totally agree with you that you have to do that, but that's part of the reason why it's so hard.
Megan: For sure. Yeah, well and I don't think that, I don't think it's a race. I don't think you have to, you don't have to, you hear that and be like, “Okay, now I have to just let it all in.” That's not what I mean. Each of us can go at our own pace, but the work that I'm doing, I keep talking to people over and over who say like, “Okay, I have not dealt with my grief, and it's been 20 years.” And so for that 20 years, they have not lived fully. They have not allowed themselves to be themselves. They have not allowed themselves to find happiness or joy because they have not allowed themselves to grieve.
Brooke: Absolutely, and just however you can get there sooner. And I think part of getting there sooner is hearing that you're not alone, and other people can help you, so that's why what you're doing is so great.
Megan: Yeah, that's a huge part of it, is knowing that you can find healing, I think, is a big thing. Knowing you're not alone, for sure, but also believing that it's possible to find life after loss. Because if we don't look, if we don't believe it or don't even try to believe it, we're not going to look for it.
Brooke: Did you find that you had a weird reaction to the first time you were happy, or you laughed afterwards? Do you remember? People have asked me that before, and I'm like, “I don't know.” But I remember feeling like- and then I thought about it, and I remember almost like guilt afterwards. Like I had, you know, a good day or good time with my friends, or whatever it was, and I was having a good time, then I was like, “Wait a second.” I was like, “My dad is still dead.” And it just kind of, it shakes you when you start to experience happiness again.
Megan: Yeah. Yeah, I think I might've had some similar reactions, like, that sounds familiar, but I feel like I remember more that even on the day that she died, I wanted people to talk about normal stuff, I wanted people to laugh around me, I wanted- it was really weird to me- I wanted, I was kind of stuck in this grief mode and trauma mode that I was in, but I wanted the people around me to keep laughing and keep talking and keep, I don't know, it was really weird. But I do think that it is a very common response that people feel guilty and, yeah, I have felt, I just have allowed everything to come in, so I don't know. I have felt, when I felt laughter, I laughed, and then the next moment I was crying, so I knew, I don’t know, it's just a weird way for me.
Brooke: Yeah. Yeah, I remember what you were talking about, that you want people to just be normal around you, and I don't know if I've ever talked about this on a podcast, but that right after we put my dad in hospice, he was on all of these different pain medications and they hadn't found like the right balance yet, and so he was like out of- very, very strong painkillers, couldn't hold a glass up, and my cousin and my sisters were out at his house, and I was in the city, but I was coming back like the next day, but I was going to be there by myself with my dad. And, I got three phone calls in succession from people who were there, and they were like, “We want you to come tonight, so you're not alone with him.” And like, “You need to come now.” And I was mad, because I was like, I need to pretend my life has some sort of normalcy. It was like right after we put him in hospice, and we thought he was going to have like three months and he had three weeks, because the doctors told him three to six months, and then obviously much shorter. But I remember saying to my cousin, and I was so angry, because I was like, “I need to pretend I have some semblance of normalcy, because like this is really happening, and that's so scary and sad.” And having a night with my friends makes me feel like my life isn't like falling apart right in front of me. And so I think, I don't know if that is similar to how you felt, but some- I totally get that you wanted to be like, no, you can still be happy even though I'm sad, if that connection makes sense.
Megan: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And I think that's a very real thing for many people, is like if I only sit here, that means that my life is falling apart, or you know, and it's hard to acknowledge that, and it takes time and it's okay. Like, I think that's the way our brains work too, they protect us in that way, and kind of helps us ease into grief and coming to terms with what's going on in our lives. I don't think it's abnormal if you don't fully accept it right away, that's totally normal.
Brooke: Yeah, alright, well I feel like we've covered a lot of really what I hope is helpful things for people to hear. I really, I always feel like using the word “enjoyed” talking to someone about this subject is a weird thing to say, but I think that this conversation was really, I know it was valuable for me, so I hope it's valuable for the listeners, and if there's anything else that you wanted to add, and then if you wanted to tell people where they can find you online.
Megan: Yeah, I guess the biggest thing I would just say is that if you are grieving that, like we talked about earlier, you're not alone, that there's so many people who are grieving, and sometimes it might be up to you to find those people, because maybe the people around you don't understand, or they don't know what's going on, and there's so much support and help out there. There's a lot of support groups, there's a lot of people on Instagram like me and you doing work, trying to talk about grief and share about grief. There's so many options. There's in-person support groups, there's Facebook groups. You don't need to suffer this alone. You don't need to just be strong and bear through it and get through. I feel like there's a lot of that “just have to get through grief and keep busy and ignore it,” and you don't need to do it alone. There's so much help, so please, please, please, get the help that you feel like you need in your grief. And yeah, I have a free mini course as well, if I can share about that.
Brooke: Yeah, absolutely, please.
Megan: Yeah, it's called “Who am I?” because it's, I feel like we kind of lose who we are after grief. After loss comes into our life, we don't know who we are, we don't know how to be ourselves anymore, because you can't continue to be yourself after you experience such a deep loss. And so, there's kind of a grieving process with that and learning to accept and love who you are now, and so I kind of go through that with this free mini course. It's completely free for anybody that would want to go through it. You can go to www.meganhillukka.com/whoami, and that's how you can get access to that.
Brooke: Do you want to spell your last name for people? I'll put it all in the post and everything.
Megan: Yeah, it's Megan, Hillukka is H-I-L-L-U-K-K-A. And then, yeah, if you want to find me on Instagram, I'm at @cultivatedfamily, and my website is meganhillukka.com.
Brooke: Okay, thank you so much again for making time to do this. I really appreciate it and, again, found this really valuable, and thank you for sharing.
Megan: Yeah, thank you for having me on. I said the same thing, I love talking about this topic, which is such a weird thing to say in my home, but it is so important and so needed, so thanks for having me on.
Brooke: All right, thanks. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Everyone, thank you for listening. You can find us on social at @The_GriefCoach, and our website is thegriefcoach.co. Thanks.